I was curious if other folks out there are still working on their story or plot.

I have my opening and my ending, but am still working on the climax and midpoint and pinch points (thinking of using the seven point plot structure). I'm also still world building, coming up with magical/scientific limits (Rings can only be used to interdimensional travel once per day (more or less, depending on what one is bringing with them), Rings have to be recharged--they take their owner to a huge alien structure with their last interdimensional travel charge) that can help drive tension and make things difficult for my heroine. And I'm trying to see how many POV characters to use (definitely my heroine Illyana will be a first person POV; and perhaps her "sister" Bettina (as a third person POV)).

Have people ever had a villain POV? I've toyed with this in the past, but it's hard (I find) to have a villain POV and also maintain their "scariness" as a villain.

--Tim

Yo yo! It me! I am working on things (slowly) and I'm gonna miss out on the prep sessions so I'm doing my best to get as nailed down as I can before November rolls around.

I have def done Villain POV because you know me and my scary sad stories! Ha~ Sometimes I like to do it as a way to build up a connection between the reader and the villain and then flipped it on its head later so they can feel sympathetic towards them and then be like WAIT THEY'RE KILLING PEOPLE? You know, because making your readers have moral dilemmas is good. Like, I used to focus villain POV scenes on the good things the villain was doing in the community, and then the bad things they did were the focus of the 'hero's' POV as the cop trying to solve crimes.

One of my short stories this year will also definitely have villain pov because it's going to focus on a nasty hazing incident and the character is one of the inciting forces behind the whole thing.

Are you thinking about switching off POVs through chapters and things or going a third person overarching?

Squiddish wrote:Yo yo! It me! I am working on things (slowly) and I'm gonna miss out on the prep sessions so I'm doing my best to get as nailed down as I can before November rolls around. I have def done Villain POV because you know me and my scary sad stories! Ha~ Sometimes I like to do it as a way to build up a connection between the reader and the villain and then flipped it on its head later so they can feel sympathetic towards them and then be like WAIT THEY'RE KILLING PEOPLE? You know, because making your readers have moral dilemmas is good. Like, I used to focus villain POV scenes on the good things the villain was doing in the community, and then the bad things they did were the focus of the 'hero's' POV as the cop trying to solve crimes.

Thanks! That is helpful. I'll have to decide whether I want moral clarity in my novel or moral dilemmas... (actually, I do usually have moral dilemmas, but they are focused on the heroes and heroines rather than on the villain).

Squiddish wrote:Are you thinking about switching off POVs through chapters and things or going a third person overarching?

Switching POVs. My group of characters will be split in two (an accident). Illyana's group will have her first person POV; the other group will be third person limited (Bettina's POV), I think. Trying to decide if a third POV is needed... (so we can keep an eye on the bad guys).

Glad you're participating again this year!

--Tim

You could always go for the occasional third POV without making it one of the main ones. I've read a few novels that haveoccasionalcheck-ins with the villain or otherwise and it's only a few chapters in the whole book. That way, you don't have to have a story split three ways evenly and can instead just pop in when it's necessary.

Not sure how well that works with your story, but I have faith you'll figure it all out by the time the first comes around!

I am still working...I did this story last year and then again for the camps...but there are still things that are huge blanks...I haven't come up with a name for one of my characters (despite flipping through my baby name book countless times...resorting to calling him "prince meatball until i find a suitable name)...the other realm is still a ????????? and i have no idea how it'll work aside from it being an old world fairy tale type world with magic...

and then comes the issue of pronouns with my main character. I don't want to reveal this main character's gender until a few chapters in...and i was trying to write the first few chapters with out using he/she/they/their/they're/etc...but even though i did it...it was difficult...and i may go back and use they or their to make the writing flow better

thing is though...i don't want people to assume "oh! using a gender neutral pronoun! This character must be queer!!!"...because people sometimes assume that if someone uses gender neutral pronouns like the/their or ze/zir......I want people to just see this character...as a person...because no matter what label you use...people are still people and it shouldn't matter what you are...what matters is "are you an asshole or not"

then, when the gender is revealed...it's not the REAL gender....my main character meets a person...and this prince meatball thinks my main character is gender A...so until it's revealed that my main character is actually gender B...the story will use gender A pronouns until the real gender is revealed...but...would that be too confusing for the reader as my main character interacts with the world at large?

In the past, I never plotted/outlined my novels, though I tried last year. This year I am giving plotting/outlining another time using the mind mapping/clustering method. Hopefully, it works since I have a more concrete idea for my novel.

As far as world-building goes I am planning on having it set in a fictional town in IL that is a combination of the small town where I lived for several years and the small lake community(and neighboring town) where my dad's side of the family had a lake house.

And that is as far as I have gotten, though I want to work out my characters before I start writing.

I need some brainstorm ideas, friends!

I have a character that has high ambitions of becoming president (or influential in the political world). I need a fact about a potential lover that she could going out that would give her pause in wanting to date him because it could be viewed negatively. But nothing too serious that it'd be damning. (Honestly it could be nothing at all as long as she could THINK it's bad)

Squiddish wrote:I need some brainstorm ideas, friends! I have a character that has high ambitions of becoming president (or influential in the political world). I need a fact about a potential lover that she could going out that would give her pause in wanting to date him because it could be viewed negatively. But nothing too serious that it'd be damning. (Honestly it could be nothing at all as long as she could THINK it's bad)

If she is a Democrat who has made a cause of fighting income inequality (which isn't to say that only Democrats do that, but in general in today's political world, this seems to be the case), she could discover that he is not only wealthy but that he is a part of a family with oil money who has been funding ALEC, etc.

If she is a values-voting Republican, he could be an activist promoting issues that are anathema to those whose support she seeks.

If she was a District Attorney who had made her name fighting corruption in corporations, he might be the CTO of the one company she hadn't been able to achieve a win over in court.

Currently, they're both college students so nothing solidified yet as far as jobs go.

The top option at the moment is that he may have been married real young and divorced? Something to keep it from being too political but still what she would consider a blemish.

To stay mildly un-political.

• He was dishonorablydischarged from the military
• He's on the sex offender's list for public nudity. (Still hung over from a killer 21st birthday party, he didn't realize the park had kids on the slide before he unzipped)
• He's unemployed/a starving artist/working at McDonalds. (Not that these are bad, but an up and comer with someone who obviously is not will be bound to raise some questions. Additionally, I guess any job that would make press raise thiereye and go "she's with him?" because media will run with anything. "Who wears the pants in this relationship?" "She supports him" and so on. I'm sure Hilaryheadlines (or Onion ones) can help)
• He's an adult video star??
• He's in witness protection, and while that's the only thing she knows, she's hesitant to bring him into the light.
• He's disabled, in some way, and she's worried the media will turn use their relationship to focus on that and law relating to it, instead of the education reform she wants.
• He's had a kid out of wedlock and has a working co-parenting relationship with the mom.
• Oooo, just realize they're in school. Um. He has no ambition. He's on his way to flunking out. He's president of the Weed Club. He's featured in the "caught on campus" photo section of the paper passed out drunk/hugging a tree/mooning someone/in a girl's choke hold. Something embarrassingand never hidable because thank you Internet and really distinctive names.

But really, do we look at college boyfriends for senators? Why does this matter now to her?

Will the story/you the writer be using Gender A pronouns until it is revealed or just the other characters? I think this is a tricky situation haha. May I ask what is the reason you are withholding this information from the reader? I think if we know this reason it'll be easier todecide if it's confusing for the reader or not. My gut instinct is to not make it too complicated. Use either they/them or the correct Gender B pronouns in story/background and use only Gender A pronouns when someone is misgendering them. However, this is dependent again on the answer to the question above, which is why the secrecy?

Does that help?

P.S. I'm positive "prince meatball" will get stuck in your head and no other character name will ever seem right. Haha, this sort of thing has happened to me before.

Here is my plot quandary:

(Quick FYI--The genre is horror ~spppppoooooky~)

I have a large cast of characters and none really take the lead. The mains are Levi, Brad, Pathik, Kelly, Linh, and Maggie. The villains are alien vampires. I don't have specific alien vampire characters yet, so far they're just this force in the story that is scary and messing stuff up. There is also a super secret villain in the group! Which turns out to be Kelly who is a serial killer.

The story opens as they are beginning to make a film. They are filming Kelly (actress) who has woken up in a scary place all alone. They're basically making a lame horror movie, but Levi (director/writer) wants it to be a serious film. They cut and are discussing the scene when A DISMEMBERED BODY FALLS FROM THE SKY. Dun dun dun....Turns out alien vampires have been on a long space journey and are tired and cranky and ~hungry~ and earth, and this place on earth, is the first thing they see. So they eat up this dude who turns out to be the actor for the male lead of the lame horror movie they're making. His messy, bloody body lands on their set and terror/shenanigans ensue.

It is revealed later that Kelly is also a serial killer and is super shady and may only be an actress in this film because she's trying to get closer to her next victim. So now confusion happens (for the characters and the readers) is it really just Kelly the whole time?

Hopefully the main plot questions that readers considerwill be "will they survive?" "Is Kelly the killer?" "Is it really alien vampires?" "What do the vampires want if not just to feed?"

And I guess what I'm not so sure on right now are two things: A) What purpose is their film serving in the plot/themes? What could be their motivation and how can I make that play into the actual scary things happening around them? and B) How do I know how much world building I need for the vampires to keep it scary and keep the mystery of Kelly forefront? To write that question a little differently, Should the vampires be fully realized characters or a thought that imaginative young film makers can't let go of? Similar to that lame horror movie trope of like "whose doing this to us!? the government? Aliens!?"or it just seems mysteriously scary and then at the very end we see a space ship leaving earth behind. Idk if that's a trope or not, but I've definitely seen at least 2 movies that have done that.

A) The movie doesn't seem super necessary to your plot, but the use of the equipment could be interesting. Cameras to catch things, props and costumes for misdirection and killing. Though, you can have the characters doubt things - is this body the effects guy having fun or???

B) It sounds like you need to figure out character interactions with killer(s). As in, are they just finding bodies? Cuz then there's a lot of mystery around what's killing people and leading people to the right monster might be a problem. But if they actually come face to face with a creature, then you can add this creeping secensation of things not adding up. All the previous bodies have been killed at night, why did he kick it at noon? As Kelly gets into the action, you can have them reevaluate everything that's been discovered up to that point. Course, you can do that either way. But knowing (of think you do) what you're doghting results in different reactions.

Yes - your vamps need to be charactized. At least, for you. Your knowledge of how they eat/hunt, why, thier biology/physiology, motivations, past interactions w/ humams all affect how they interact w/ your humans. For nano, you can be looser but for a finished novel you'll need to know this.

Not that your characters do. But drop hints for readers to put things together.

This is the first year I'm not doing a full-on, crazy-level outline. In examining my past NaNo experiences, I'm finding that maybe having that rigid outline held me back in some ways. I've been trying to recapture the freedom I felt when writing fanfiction, and a lot of that came from not having an outline, but rather discovering the plot as I wrote.So I'll have basic info this year, including character sketches and a basic shell of what I want to happen in the story, but no bullet points and no big outline.

well, the initial reason i am not giving away any gender to start...is based on the idea...that it doesn't matter whether you are he, she, trans, bi, poly, demi sexual, asexual, or whatever...people are people and i want the reader to see my MC as that. A person...with a story, a life, a job...no different than the rest of us...because too often, we judge people in this world based on the label we give ourselves...or we don't give ourselves a label so remain safe...

Then...when the gender is "revealed"...the characters AND reader...it's all going to be gender A. stick to just one...so as you are reading....you aren't switching between 2 genders in one paragraph. You get introduced to the gender first..as Gender A...so that's what it will be. Kind of like an episode of sailor moon...where they first meet Haruka for the first time...they thought she was a really hot and handsome boy...so..."he is really cute!" "HE is so hot!" "HE has a girlfriend?!"

then...they find out that Haruka is really a girl...so...from then on out "SHE is our ally!" "SHE is a good race car driver"....But Haruka is gender fluid and often can switch between man or woman...even though she identifies primarily as a woman...

Then, i am thinking that once the true gender is revealed...either keep using Gender B from then on out...and giving the reader clues that "oh yeah...the MC is gender A right now...so the characters will use gender A pronouns" (or, the character just waking up and going "Ok...so i don't confuse anyone...I'm gender A today...just fyi"

so...like...You read the MC as gender B (the true gender) a but the characters address the MC as gender A because that's what they identify with that day"

or...do i use gender A for readers and characters when MC is gender A...and gender B when character is gender B?

Hmmm, this is getting complicated haha.

I think that by having the various reveals you're actually doing the opposite of what you wanted in the first place. By focusing on these reveals and the pronouns you're making it matter whereas you mentioned initially that you don't want the reader to judge the main character based on labels. If I were reading that story I would now be over analyzing every instance of gender and trying to understand if you were making aspecific pointabout women or men or genderqueer or trans people when, it sounds like, you want to be much more open and not focus on labels.

I have never seen Sailor Moon (eeeeep! I know, I'm missing important pop culture things!) so I'm not sure how it comes across in that show, but for me, with this little bit of info, the gender reveals seem to be sensationalized and used as "plot twists" when the character and their identity should be respected more. Again, I haven't read it or seen that show so I could be missing crucial perspectives.

It would help if i knew what your narration POV was I suppose. Is it third person or first person? Because if it's third person I really feel like this whole thing is going to be more confusing to the reader than it ought to be. As an author already knows the truth of the character and now it'll just feel like a trick. Focus on the character and the story and make your points about gender when you need to make them, but don't make them so convoluted that the reader loses the important message--that everyone should be respected and not misgendered.

....Rereading over your post, I guess you're talking a little bit more about fluidity between genders. In that case I would just follow what's in your heart for that character at that time. If you're making a point/theme about gender for the readers...if you're trying to teach a lesson about respecting gender identity...then I would think carefully about how your character explains themselves to the other characters, how the others view them/judge them/interact with them, how the others learn or don't learn and if that's bad or good.But if you want the character to just be "a person" and you don't want it to matter ultimately in the plot then you'll need to find a way to tone it down in general so it's not distracting. Nothing in a story should be useless information. It should all relate somehow to the plot or the world that is helpful to the reader, so as not to confuse the real purpose.

Does any of that help? I hope I'm not stepping on your toes, just trying to give a reader perspective.

OH MAN! You're a genius. I didn't even think about using cameras and costumes and etc for misdirection and added suspense. Oh man. I feel silly a little bit but this changes everything.

Thank you for your help :) I will meditate on these alien vampires a little more before November.

You can be a representative at 25 and a senator by 35. She doesn't just want a filler boyfriend. She's looking to the future and planning accordingly. ;)

I like the flunking idea--could be possible that he's been buying test answers for something or having someone do work for him.

Squiddish wrote:You can be a representative at 25 and a senator by 35. She doesn't just want a filler boyfriend. She's looking to the future and planning accordingly. ;) I like the flunking idea--could be possible that he's been buying test answers for something or having someone do work for him.

Someone who cheats in school might well cheat on her later in life; she would do well to steer clear of him.

How about if he's homeless? He's fallen on hard times through a series of bad luck events, but he takes pains to hide it. She doesn't find out until she's developed feelings for him; he is too proud to tell her that his homelessness state is likely to soon end.

My story this year involves ghosts and I want to include the story of Flight 191, which crashed back in the 1970s (my story takes place now). How would I work it into my story without changing the actual event?

This actually is very helpful...it gives me things to mull over on how i want to proceed with the story... :) thanks!

That's a very good idea. I like that.... I might go with that! We'll see what happens by the time I get to their story.

A few ways, but mostly having the results of that crash affect present day. A decendent, new info showing up, someone whating to do a documentey on it. A ghost was a passenger, or indirectly responsible.

I think i might just chisel away 90% of this idea in favor of something easier...

Write as gender neutral as i can until the MC's main gender is revealed...in the real world...write third person or whatever i can get to work...in the fantasy world the MC ends up in too...i'll write it gender neutral as well until we get to the reveal chapter...but...the people in this fantasy world..will just be in the confused box...because a stranger...wearing strange clothes...with short hair...they honestly can't tell if this strange person is a boy...or a girl...

Lass? Whatdya mean, lass? The LAD is clearly a traveler who has lost his way! Be kind, mdear!
Dont you dearie me! SHE clearly needs to pay for what she has eaten!
And HE is clearly long gone, Mlove Gus smiled and pointed his thumb behind his wife.
Bloody hell! Maureen slapped an old rag to the ground.

that seems to make this plot conundrum much easier

Aww man, all of what GwenTolios said and also flashbacks. I love good flashbacks and stories that have changing times/perspectives. A chapter or two of the crash. Then a bunch of chapters of your regular plot. Then the crash again, etc etc.

I have a rough plot, but need events to get from point a to point b to point c and so on.

Just things that my MC has to do that he said he would never do. Like go to Starbucks. Go skydiving. Run a 5k. Try durian. Things that eventually bring him closer together with the female protagonist. Both silly things and serious things.

Climb a mountain and scream from the top.
Learn to do a headstand.
Attempt to hug every stranger they see for a day.
See something that leaves them speechless.
Make a self portrait.
Go a whole day without talking.
Learn to say something in as many language as possible.
Sing karaoke.
Go to a circus.
Sleep outside under the stars.
Write a book (IN A MONTH??)
See the Seven wonders.
Make someone happy.
Get struck by lightning and live.
Hunt for dinosaur bones in the least likely places.
Ride a camel.
Carve initials into a tree.
Cliff jumping.
Drive a hearse.
Impersonate a Buckingham Palace guard.
Do a real hula.
Tell someone how you feel.
Spend all day in bed with someone you love.
Make up a drinking game.
Make milk come out someone's nose from telling a great joke.
Dance in the rain.
Go streaking.
Go skinny-dipping.
Learn to do a backflip (or frontflip)
Make someone happy.

I can keep going... should I keep going?

What you've written could almost be a poem, Katherine (it would be an interesting transformation).

--Tim

Squiddish wrote:Climb a mountain and scream from the top.
Learn to do a headstand.
Attempt to hug every stranger they see for a day.
See something that leaves them speechless.
Make a self portrait.
Go a whole day without talking.
Learn to say something in as many language as possible.
Sing karaoke.
Go to a circus.
Sleep outside under the stars.
Write a book (IN A MONTH??)
See the Seven wonders.
Make someone happy.
Get struck by lightning and live.
Hunt for dinosaur bones in the least likely places.
Ride a camel.
Carve initials into a tree.
Cliff jumping.
Drive a hearse.
Impersonate a Buckingham Palace guard.
Do a real hula.
Tell someone how you feel.
Spend all day in bed with someone you love.
Make up a drinking game.
Make milk come out someone's nose from telling a great joke.
Dance in the rain.
Go streaking.
Go skinny-dipping.
Learn to do a backflip (or frontflip)
Make someone happy.

I can keep going... should I keep going?

learn to knit an entire sweater in one go...while at a friends house who has cats...

I suggest having the MC believe he needs to complete these tasks in order to have his team win. This way there's an urgency for him to complete them all. I also wouldn't shy away from making this about the 2016 Cub's season, at least in the first draft. Adding parts about the Cub's playoff run should be easy for you to write and help get to 50K. Plus, if you're having him complete these tasks prior to the end of the world series, you'll have clear time line and some key events that encourage him to keep going.

As far as the tasks - he could get a tattoo of one of the players, or the whole, or all the tattoos one of the players has. I think a lot of the task should be things he would hate or fear to do; learn to swim, stand on the edge of a cliff, sing karaoke.

Here's some more 'homebrew' options that might require less traveling than seeing the Seven Wonders

• Cooking a certain dish
• Visiting a famous local restaurant
• Reading a western book
• Seeing a classic movie (Casablanca?)
• Dress up for a fancy dinner
• Volunteer at a soup kitchen
• Doing yoga
• Going to a church
• Apologize for something/to someone
• Go swimming (or some other thing after a bad first experience)
• Spend more than $30 for a meal
• Babysitting
• Visit a grave
• Cheat on a test/event
• An Atkin's diet
• Get hypnotized
• Dress in drag

so...considering my gender neutral issue...and the fact i wrote the first few chapters already in 3rd person when talking about the MC....i felt it got to repetitive "Harley opened the fridge and pulled out breakfast when all of a sudden Harley's dog got under foot, tripping Harley until Harley fell on the floor, bruising Harley's thigh"

I mean, not like that exactly...but wording it similar...

My question for plot is...i may decide to re-write the entire first part of the novel...but using "They/Their" pronouns so the writing flows easier...and would it necessarily be cheating...if i put my old novel side by side with a new document and type copy everything or go in and edit the orignial? My novel now has 25k in words...and I've never done a re-write like others do and...and..do people just write from scratch when re-doing their novel? do they put documents side by side and copy...making edits where needed?

I really want to try and see how the story flows and reads if i include gender neutral "they/their" pronouns...but i don't want to feel like i am sorta cheating by just copying 75% word for word my previous novel....

Thoughts?

People who write their novels longhand get a big boost from what is essentially their first edit when they type up their story. Invariably, the typed story is different and improved from what they had hand-written. That's probably true for whatever process you follow. As you type you will edit. The only proviso I would make is that when you are editing, you will likely be going slower than you would if you were writing (with your internal editor switched off). Maybe that would be offset by having your original story mapped out well.

It's really all up to you; there is no real "cheating" in a contest with yourself. How do you want to spend your time? What do you want to accomplish? Only you can answer that.

As far as wordcounts go, you could, if you like, count only a fraction of the first 25k words--the words you are adding. But it is not a requirement in my view.

-Tim

yeah...doing nano for so many years...there really IS no wrong way to write...words are words...to me though, it just feels like cheating if i get 25k in words in 3 days because i'm just copying things word for word with only minor edits and paragraph changes here or there.....but then again...i've seen MANY a writer here get 30k or even higher in 2 days...

kind of like the argument some artists use...where traced art isn't real art...but...some artists say traced art is a great way to learn and get better

I wrote a piece with a villain POV once. I found that providing more information on his motivation probably made him more understandable yet even creepier. He gave a lot of thought into how he would trip up the protagonist. I don't think it made the villain more sympathetic, just more cunning, and hopefully increased the anxiety that the reader felt for the poor protagonist. I didn't go deep with his motives, showing how he got this way, but I did explain about how he thought he'd been wronged and how that justified his behaviors in his mind.

Really interesting dialogue here... I appreciate what you're trying to do Goddess_Astra. Here's a thought: if you want gender not to be a big deal what about making everyone gender neutral, sending the message that in your world it's just not a thing. I don't know if that fits in with your broader theme and setting -- just a random idea.